Is the PC engine/turbografx consoles the defenitive platform for shmups??

[Keranu]

For a list (and descriptions) of all the shooters for the Genesis/Mega Drive (no run and guns), CLICK HERE.

Man, screw that list for dissing Insector X and saying how the arcade version is much better (WTF?). Gadget Twins looks awesome though.

[Turbo D]

ya, screw that shit

[Joe Redifer]

Yeah, fuck it all to hell.  Let's go murder their family for daring to type such a list!  I mean, HOW DARE THEY!

[Tatsujin]

It'd be nice to see a list of all PCE and MD shooters - yes, the japanese systems (no run-n-gun, please). Maybe the snes, too, I guess.

for jap. PCE shmups i only can help out with my unoffical list which you people already know about, i guess.

[esteban]

So you're saying that fans of the TG-16 and PCE are just lazy?

No, we're saying that Mr. Horowitz is one of the most productive, tireless workhorses in the goddam world!

[Tatsujin]

after reading all those pre-reviews, once again i'm glad to be a pce shmuper. will not mean i didn't know a lot of those shmups. almost played or owned most of them in the past. but the poor quality/quantity ration compared to the PCE library is proven once again.

[CrackTiger]

So you're saying that fans of the TG-16 and PCE are just lazy?

No, we're saying that Mr. Horowitz is one of the most productive, tireless workhorses in the goddam world!

Unforunately, he also can't put his fanboyism behind him enough to give reasonably fair opinions on inter-console issues. His articles are like the Sega Genesis version of what I've been led to believe that Fox News(or CNN?) is.

I think that I counted 77 totles in that list. Although I don't personally count Afterburner/Galaxy Force-type games as shmups and wouldn't count 32X games, I would've included Monster Lair.

[nat]

I think that I counted 77 totles in that list. Although I don't personally count Afterburner/Galaxy Force-type games as shmups and wouldn't count 32X games, I would've included Monster Lair.

I glanced at PCECP.COM and counted 140 PCE shooters. Some of those are probably US/Japan duplicates, so maybe 110-120 total?

[RCduck7]

Thunder Force 3 is probably my favorite to play, even though it is extremely easy for me.  I like Thunder Force 4 a lot, but it does get a bit fatiguing.  So does Thunder Force 5, which was less fun than part 4.  It just tried to be too "hardcore".  I really, really enjoy Thunder Force 2.  It had the perfect difficulty level.  And yes, I enjoy the overhead stages.

For a list (and descriptions) of all the shooters for the Genesis/Mega Drive (no run and guns), CLICK HERE.

I don't know of any similar lists for the PCE or SNES.

Thunder Force 3 happens to be one of my favorites to... and thruxton...
Propably also a lot to do with the fond memories i had on them.
I'm glad i made lots of good choices when i bought games as a kid as otherwise i might say different.

Anyways, i only just discovered (a week ago) thunder force 3 was released on the snes named "thunder spirits".
Not sure it was called that way in all regions though.
Played it on my snes emulator.
It's not exactly a straight port from the genesis version, it is more difficult from my experience.
Backgrounds are a bit different and maybe more detailed but it seems as a result end bosses seem to stand out a bit less, but that's maybe something to do with the fact that the first boss is yellow instead of red.
The music is a bit smoother but doesn't come true to be as emotional as the genesis version to.
Haven't put that much playtime in the snes version but it seems i still prefer the genesis version.

[CrackTiger]

Thunder Force 3 is probably my favorite to play, even though it is extremely easy for me.  I like Thunder Force 4 a lot, but it does get a bit fatiguing.  So does Thunder Force 5, which was less fun than part 4.  It just tried to be too "hardcore".  I really, really enjoy Thunder Force 2.  It had the perfect difficulty level.  And yes, I enjoy the overhead stages.

For a list (and descriptions) of all the shooters for the Genesis/Mega Drive (no run and guns), CLICK HERE.

I don't know of any similar lists for the PCE or SNES.

Thunder Force 3 happens to be one of my favorites to... and thruxton...
Propably also a lot to do with the fond memories i had on them.
I'm glad i made lots of good choices when i bought games as a kid as otherwise i might say different.

Anyways, i only just discovered (a week ago) thunder force 3 was released on the snes named "thunder spirits".
Not sure it was called that way in all regions though.
Played it on my snes emulator.
It's not exactly a straight port from the genesis version, it is more difficult from my experience.
Backgrounds are a bit different and maybe more detailed but it seems as a result end bosses seem to stand out a bit less, but that's maybe something to do with the fact that the first boss is yellow instead of red.
The music is a bit smoother but doesn't come true to be as emotional as the genesis version to.
Haven't put that much playtime in the snes version but it seems i still prefer the genesis version.

Its a port of the arcade version of TFIII, which was made after the Genesis game.

[GUTS]

Thunder Spirits is an awful port.

[Tatsujin]

I think that I counted 77 totles in that list. Although I don't personally count Afterburner/Galaxy Force-type games as shmups and wouldn't count 32X games, I would've included Monster Lair.

I glanced at PCECP.COM and counted 140 PCE shooters. Some of those are probably US/Japan duplicates, so maybe 110-120 total?

109

[nat]

I think that I counted 77 totles in that list. Although I don't personally count Afterburner/Galaxy Force-type games as shmups and wouldn't count 32X games, I would've included Monster Lair.

I glanced at PCECP.COM and counted 140 PCE shooters. Some of those are probably US/Japan duplicates, so maybe 110-120 total?

109

Of course, should have just looked at your signature.

[Joe Redifer]

after reading all those pre-reviews, once again i'm glad to be a pce shmuper. will not mean i didn't know a lot of those shmups. almost played or owned most of them in the past. but the poor quality/quantity ration compared to the PCE library is proven once again.

You are obviously a fanboy.  Why do you care if the PCE library of shooters is superior?  Why not just enjoy all of the good shooters on both systems?  But you limit yourself to only the PCE?  If you have indeed played most of the Genesis/Mega Drive shooters, you'd know that the quality of quite a few of them are sky high.  Every game can't be a winner no matter the console, but I have a feeling that if the same games were on the PCE in the same exact form (and were never on the Mega Drive), you'd like them more than you do since they are on the Mega Drive. 

I never even gave this issue a thought until this thread popped up.

Games like Zaxxon absolutely deserve to be on Sega-16's list.  And the games like After Burner and whatnot were on a page called "Best of the rest" or similar.  He wasn't trying to pile them with the other shooters.  And as far as the CNN/FOX comment goes, it's usually people who are biased to one side who find bias faults in other places since they feel their views are being under-represented.

[Tatsujin]

If you have indeed played most of the Genesis/Mega Drive shooters, you'd know that the quality of quite a few of them are sky high.

yeah, exactly. and exactly those "quite a few" ones i kept to play or looking for to buy. my space is limited. i focused to collect any pc engine related things, software in the first place. and yes, even the MD/genny has some really nice shooter (eliminate down, gley lancer, TFIII, Musha aleste, gynoug..) the PCEs library is still superior!
may be i can call my self a PCE fanboy, yes. but there're quite a lot good reason for.

i love the SFC as well the MD in 2nd and 3rd place. but the winner overall is decided a long long time ago.

[Keranu]

You can list all the Thunder Forces and Mushas you want, but all the Genesis needs is Insector X to be the best shooter console of all time .

[TurboXray]

Thunder Force 3 is probably my favorite to play, even though it is extremely easy for me.  I like Thunder Force 4 a lot, but it does get a bit fatiguing.  So does Thunder Force 5, which was less fun than part 4.  It just tried to be too "hardcore".  I really, really enjoy Thunder Force 2.  It had the perfect difficulty level.  And yes, I enjoy the overhead stages.

For a list (and descriptions) of all the shooters for the Genesis/Mega Drive (no run and guns), CLICK HERE.

I don't know of any similar lists for the PCE or SNES.

Thunder Force 3 happens to be one of my favorites to... and thruxton...
Propably also a lot to do with the fond memories i had on them.
I'm glad i made lots of good choices when i bought games as a kid as otherwise i might say different.

Anyways, i only just discovered (a week ago) thunder force 3 was released on the snes named "thunder spirits".
Not sure it was called that way in all regions though.
Played it on my snes emulator.
It's not exactly a straight port from the genesis version, it is more difficult from my experience.
Backgrounds are a bit different and maybe more detailed but it seems as a result end bosses seem to stand out a bit less, but that's maybe something to do with the fact that the first boss is yellow instead of red.
The music is a bit smoother but doesn't come true to be as emotional as the genesis version to.
Haven't put that much playtime in the snes version but it seems i still prefer the genesis version.

Yeah, that was a port of the Arcade version of TF3 - though they added or replaced some additional stuff. Either way, whatever team did the port, did a really shoddy job. The music is lacking, but the worst part is the game shutters every time you shoot. At first I thought this was an emulation issue, but after buying the cart for $2 and playing it on the snes - I found out it was for real!

[Tatsujin]

You can list all the Thunder Forces and Mushas you want, but all the Genesis needs is Insector X to be the best shooter console of all time .

now that's one of those typical keranu sentences. the cheesier the game the better it is!!

[Keranu]

;)

[Joe Redifer]

Keranu, I rented and beat Genesis Insector X the first time I played it.  I'm not even sure if I used a continue or not.  What does this game have that fascinates you so?  I'll agree that it is better than the arcade, though.  The arcade seemed almost unplayable to me.

[CrackTiger]

after reading all those pre-reviews, once again i'm glad to be a pce shmuper. will not mean i didn't know a lot of those shmups. almost played or owned most of them in the past. but the poor quality/quantity ration compared to the PCE library is proven once again.

You are obviously a fanboy.  Why do you care if the PCE library of shooters is superior?  Why not just enjoy all of the good shooters on both systems?  But you limit yourself to only the PCE?  If you have indeed played most of the Genesis/Mega Drive shooters, you'd know that the quality of quite a few of them are sky high.  Every game can't be a winner no matter the console, but I have a feeling that if the same games were on the PCE in the same exact form (and were never on the Mega Drive), you'd like them more than you do since they are on the Mega Drive. 

I never even gave this issue a thought until this thread popped up.

Games like Zaxxon absolutely deserve to be on Sega-16's list.  And the games like After Burner and whatnot were on a page called "Best of the rest" or similar.  He wasn't trying to pile them with the other shooters.  And as far as the CNN/FOX comment goes, it's usually people who are biased to one side who find bias faults in other places since they feel their views are being under-represented.

I never said that those misc shooting like games shouldn't be on the list, just that I don't count them as shmups myself. But like I said, I'd count a game like Monster Lair as a shooter'ish enough, which means that by my personal standards the MD probably has more shootery games and if counting the Afterburner types, so does the PCE.


I understand how biased people can feel, but I've read some clear cut biased articles of his, mainly the earlier ones. But it may have had more to do with ignorance, since there are some pretty out there comments.

I personally love the Genesis and have been playing it longer than the TG-16 and definitely do not assume that anything on both MD & PCE must always be better on PCE since its 'of course' better hardware.

Here are some specific comments I came across recently in the Dungeon Explorer comparison-


"After spending some time with the two of them, however, it becomes evident that the limits of the TurboGrafx hardware kept the game from reaching its full potential."

"Graphics: The first difference you're likely to notice, and it's where the Sega CD's better hardware is most apparent."

"Where the Sega CD blows the Turbo out of the water here is via its support of s-video. If you're lucky enough to have a Genesis modded for such output, there is simply no comparison. The quality of the visuals is so much better than through the Turbo's RF or composite cable that it's an easy choice."


Other than the occasional comment like that, some of KH's articles(like other fanboy's), seem to stretch to favor the Genesis and diminish the competition. From recent articles I've read, its not usually reduced to a simple line or so, but here's one crazy knock against DE-

"You are forced to resort to copying long passwords that can be a pain to manage. The longer a password, the greater the chance of messing it up, thereby losing your game forever."


But at least he usually mentions being a 'Sega nut' in some articles, so you know where he's coming from. Where as there are many losers out there stating things more as fact.

And its still far from the true crazies calling Nintendo and/or SNES 'evil' and/or 'the enemy'. Not that haven't read some pretty crazy stuff on these boards as well.

Keranu, I rented and beat Genesis Insector X the first time I played it.  I'm not even sure if I used a continue or not.  What does this game have that fascinates you so?  I'll agree that it is better than the arcade, though.  The arcade seemed almost unplayable to me.

CHEEEEZ.

[Keranu]

Keranu, I rented and beat Genesis Insector X the first time I played it.  I'm not even sure if I used a continue or not.  What does this game have that fascinates you so?  I'll agree that it is better than the arcade, though.  The arcade seemed almost unplayable to me.

Well this article I wrote sorta explains my love for it, but it is a defensive article. Insector X was a game I grew up with and only learned to fully love just some years ago after replaying it from years. However, here is a list of what attracts me to the game:

• MUSIC!
• Sound effects
• Sage's Creation name
• Insects (because they rule)
• Bosses (the designs are really incredible)
• Graphics
• Weapon system (nice and simple and doesn't have you going through a list of gazillion weapons like Thunder Force)
• The joy of killing a bunch of those littles nats and then dodging the bullets that torpedo at you when they die
• Kait
• Levels (stage 3 was my favorite with how fly through a city with gigantic clocks and towers and move into a sewer system)
• Relaxing ending
• The awesome title screen!
• Box and instruction art
• Kait's obsessive compulsive nature of how he has to position himself just right before moving onto the next part of a stage

[Joe Redifer]

Interesting.  I will get this game if I ever see it (I would have, anyway).  But a couple things:

-The large majority of Genesis games at this time did indeed have parallax scrolling.  So Insector X was the odd man out.  However I believe it was trying to be more faithful to the arcade version, and that's why it didn't have it.

-I think the game does indeed use two background layers... they just both scroll at the same exact speed.  Sometimes if you look closely, you can see them wobble apart ever-so-slightly.  I guess it is easier to do this than to create special blocks in the background at edges and stuff.  Kind of like Photoshop layers...  It's easier to insert a graphic behind the main layer and call it a day than it is to work on one layer and try to create the graphics on one level.  Hard to explain.

[Tatsujin]

Hard to explain.

not that hard. i could've seen that effect on other games as well. but then again my question was "why the hell they spending effort on creating TWO LAYERS, but do scroll them on the exact same speed??" fools!!

[CrackTiger]

I can understand using a still bg with a scrolling layer in front...

I'm guessing that it was just an easier way to layout the graphics and they either had no plans to program in seperate scrolling or didn't get to finish it.

[Tatsujin]

and they either had no plans to program in seperate scrolling or didn't get to finish it.

oh yes, that dumb ass crew. i'm not a progammer nor coder, but if you work is already done to that point, it probably would take you about further 10 minutes to finish a beautiful and nice looking 2-layer parallax scrolling.

[OldRover]

oh yes, that dumb ass crew. i'm not a progammer nor coder, but if you work is already done to that point, it probably would take you about further 10 minutes to finish a beautiful and nice looking 2-layer parallax scrolling.

Emphasis added to prove your own comment. ;)

[Tatsujin]

oh yes, that dumb ass crew. i'm not a progammer nor coder, but if you work is already done to that point, it probably would take you about further 10 minutes to finish a beautiful and nice looking 2-layer parallax scrolling.

Emphasis added to prove your own comment. ;)

but say it isn't true, say it!!

[TurboXray]

 I know of only two reasons for combining two layers as a single (same scroll speed and what not).

1) It'll increase the color count per tile from 16 to 31(not 32) if overlaid correctly, but this cost double the space for tiles. Sega actually mentions this in there SEGACD dev manual for when doing FMV.


2) You can add graphic effects to other tiles without having a whole new set of tiles - this saves space. Think of them as effects tiles like cracks or grass or other such detail like clipping a tile in an unusual place to make it look for natural and less tile-y. Final Fantasy 1 remake for GBA does this, but it does this with 3 layers.

[OldRover]

but say it isn't true, say it!!

It isn't true, actually. The point I was making is that since you are not a programmer or a coder, you wouldn't know what kind of work it would involve. ;) Parallax adds a whole new level of graphical difficulty, especially if the original content wasn't designed to have independent scrolls. For starters, you have to make sure you have enough graphics to keep the display fluid and not "tear" when the end of the map is reached. And that's just the beginning of your problems!

[Joe Redifer]

Actually all you'd have to do is make layer two scroll more slowly.  Since it is moving slower, it won't run out of graphics.

[Keranu]

Interesting.  I will get this game if I ever see it (I would have, anyway).  But a couple things:

-The large majority of Genesis games at this time did indeed have parallax scrolling.  So Insector X was the odd man out.  However I believe it was trying to be more faithful to the arcade version, and that's why it didn't have it.

I understand a lot of Genesis games had parallax back then, but my point was more that parallax at that time was just starting to get really common, so Insector X wasn't in the worst time slot to not have parallax. If it was made in like 1993, then it would've been less forgiving. But yeah I agree with you, it was probably just because the arcade version didn't have parallax (the backgrounds look nearly the same).

-I think the game does indeed use two background layers... they just both scroll at the same exact speed.  Sometimes if you look closely, you can see them wobble apart ever-so-slightly.  I guess it is easier to do this than to create special blocks in the background at edges and stuff.  Kind of like Photoshop layers...  It's easier to insert a graphic behind the main layer and call it a day than it is to work on one layer and try to create the graphics on one level.  Hard to explain.

Wow, thanks for telling me this! I never noticed this before and now I am definitely going to have to keep my eye on this next time I play!

Also I'd just like to comment that the arcade version of Insector X is pretty good too. Each version has it's pros: the arcade version has extra backgrounds, a slightly better weapon system, and lots more challenge while the Genesis version has cooler sprites (though some may prefer the cutesy cartoony look of the arcade, I myself definitely prefer the awesome realistic mechanical insect designs!), way better music, and better sound effects.

[nat]

Not to derail this riveting Insector X commentary, but what do you guys think of Terra Cresta  II? I got a copy today in the mail and it seems pretty cool so far. I played through the third level or something and the graphics just keep getting better. The tunes are really good too, but the instruments used have an NES-like quality to them. But it works.

For someone who's played through, how does the game play out overall? I'm intrigued with the ability of designing my own craft formations but I'm not quite sure what to do with it yet.

[Tatsujin]

terra creast II is nice. what did you pay for?

[nat]

$70

Good price? I seem to remember this game went for like $200 a couple of years ago.

[Tatsujin]

$200? really?

$70 seems to be an OK price. bought mine for about $55 @ super potato 2y ago.

[nat]

yeah it was eBay i saw those high prices... back in the day. still, a typical BIN price for it is like $100+ even today.

[Turbo D]

damn ebay