Why the PCE? Why Not the Genesis or SNES???

[Joe Redifer]

I don't mind if they are used intermittently, but when they are used as a main instrument, I am bothered by it.

[OldMan]

Yes, comparing arps to dithering is not so far off.  But it is still such high-speed "dithering" that it's more like magazine halftone printing ....

Hunh? Maybe if the dots on the paper changed sizes....
Half-toning would be more like silencing a voice on/off, like through a fan, maybe.

Without even the dithering in the printing industry, all your magazines would be composed of bands of 4 solid colours.

Okay, am I the only one having trouble with this comparison?
Dithering is when you place 2 or more dots next to each other, to 'trick' the eye into seeing a third color, right?
Or is there some other kind of dithering you're talking about???

Halftoning, on the other hand, is when you place larger or smaller dots of a single color on a sheet of paper, to make the color look more/less saturated. Even using one color and a background, you can get a -lot- of shades of the color, by varying the dot size.

And I happen to like comic-style 4 color artwork, thank you.

--------- I do understand what you're trying to say, though. Arps (properly called apeggios, for those who don't know) are an attempt to mimic a chord sound in one channel- but there is an inherent flaw in that. The human ear can hear up to about 41KHz; anything that changes faster than that most people won't be able to hear.
And anything slower, they will hear as two distinct tones (and not the combined frequencies of a chord).  Maybe if you mixed the frequencies together and went for the combination, it might work. To me, they just sound like someone trying too hard to play something simple .
(Kinda like when they do all the fancy trills and stuff on american idol; the song wasn't originally written with all that stuff, so quit putting it in - it only ruins the song! Sing what's written, and Quit Showing Off. Or can't you hold a single note in tune that long???)

[Arkhan Asylum]

true arpeggios are meant to be elegant.

Arpeggios are just the notes of a chord played one after the other.  The place they came from, classical music, uses them quite nicely as a way to blend melody, and provide background depth while other things are going on.

You don't really hear bubbly super fast 240bpm blerpberlp arpeggios in classical music land.  That would be kind of hilarious though.

[esteban]

THE RAMPANT ANTI-ARPEGGIO PROPAGANDA IS BUNK

Sorry folks, but you're missing out on a literal goldmine of fantastic tunes. I pity you, but, clearly, musical taste is one of the most subjective things in life and I will just say to you: "Don't be a hater"



ANTI-C64 PROPAGANDA IS BUNK

Even if you LOATHE arpeggio+C64, you can spend eons listening to marvelous tracks that never/barely use arpeggio.

So, please do not allow your arpeggio intolerance to dismiss the entire C64 goldmine of tunes.

The worst song on the entire Turbo platform? The Impossamole title screen track.

This is fact, and it's no coincidence.

FALSE. In the Turbo library, it is one of the standout title screens. In fact, this is law. I am law.

Seriously, though, I really do love the title music to Impossamole.

[grahf]

C64 kicks ass. Back in those days I didn't really pay attention to music in games (didn't really listen to music much at all in my teens),  but even I knew there was something special about the Commodore.

[esteban]

Am I the only red-blooded American who is pro-arpeggio?!

Fellow North Americans, you have let down your continent.

[Arkhan Asylum]

C64 kicks ass. Back in those days I didn't really pay attention to music in games (didn't really listen to music much at all in my teens),  but even I knew there was something special about the Commodore.

the SID is what made the commodore succeed as far as games.  If you had any of the other bleepers, it would not have been nearly as distinguished or desirable over other machines.

Imagine it with your standard speccy bleep bloopity crap, on top of muddy, chunky graphics. 

[Tatsujin]

Sure the c64 was all about its music, that why I loved it so much even after I got me an Amiga, and still love it today. Sometimes music can be the motivation factor number 1 in a game, as far c64 games go, this was almost the case for every game.

I'M LOVIN' IT!

[SignOfZeta]

anyone who actually hears chords from arpeggios must be listening through RF or ...

The chord is implicite when one hears the notes that comprise it. Music and the humans that make/hear it work together to make this happen. Its fundimental aspect of music. One plays chords on a bass guitar, even though usually only one note is played at a time.

[TurboXray]

anyone who actually hears chords from arpeggios must be listening through RF or ...

The chord is implicite when one hears the notes that comprise it. Music and the humans that make/hear it work together to make this happen. Its fundimental aspect of music. One plays chords on a bass guitar, even though usually only one note is played at a time.

Yeah, but there are sound waves overlaying on top of each of the rapid plucked strings. On the C64 and other chips, they use a single channel. There's no overlaying of any of the notes on different channels.

[SignOfZeta]

You don't need polyphony of any kind to depict a chord. The listener interpolates it.

[Joe Redifer]

Something  must be wrong somewhere because I do not interpret chords from C64 arpeggios. They almost make me laugh because they sound so silly.

[grahf]

You might have mono.

[Tatsujin]

hahaha.

[esteban]

[Tatsujin]

WÖRD!!

[_Paul]

Truth.

[spenoza]

You don't need polyphony of any kind to depict a chord. The listener interpolates it.

I do not this this is consistent with natural human hearing and will pretty much vary based on individual perception. It is a kludge to make up for a deficiency. Used well it can produce some interesting variety. I perceive that it's not usually used well. I'm glad some of you like it. If it was widely hated it would probably not have been used to much, but I do think there's a cultural divide in how it is received.

[Joe Redifer]

It's appreciated in Europe, but Europe operates at 50Hz.  Why?  Because their brains are slower.  Since the average European's brain is so incredibly slow, the warbling arpeggios does interpolate into a single chord for them since they cannot think fast enough to perceive the warble.  

FACT:  The C64 has no music that can compete with the likes of Blaster Master, Batman, Mega Man 2, etc etc etc.

[Tatsujin]

lol, LOL. TELL ME AGAIN HUMAIN.

[SignOfZeta]

I think I misunderstood this concept of arping that C64 fans have. I've been explaining that chords and polyphony aren't necisarity integral (ie: you're too focus on chords as in guitar chords, but chords exist in monophonicly in many types of music).

Now that I'm thinking back to what little C64 music I've heard, I think what you guys call an arpeggio is really more like vibrato. If it is an actual arp, it's an arp that uses 256th notes or some shit to approximate vibrato because vibrato doesn't exists as a hardware function on the C64's sound chip. It does, therefore, sort of sound like a guitar chord (ie: polyphonic).

[TurboXray]

You don't need polyphony of any kind to depict a chord. The listener interpolates it.

But your example does have polyphony. And that does have an influencing factor. But your example isn't really relative to chiptunes, since chiptunes are doing it at a much faster rate than any guitarist including this guy:

And chiptunes are using a single channel (for an obvious reason, lack of channels to make a real chord). There's a hard cut off from note to note of the rapid succession of looped notes. That cutoff is perceived by the listener. It makes it even more harsh/standout.

 The listener isn't hearing a chord, else you wouldn't hear the artifacts of the low frequency note changing. If it was note changing at like 16khz or such, it'd probably sound pretty solid or close to a normal chord. It would be 'interpolated' around that point. I'm not saying the listener isn't getting or perceiving something from the rapid succession of notes that would be a chord, but at a low frequency output rate - else the method wouldn't work as it does. I'm just saying it's not a perceived 'chord'. It's something else. And that something else already has a name: arpeggio (in the chiptune context).

[SignOfZeta]

If I play three notes from a chord, one at a time, all on the same string so that there is no overlap, quarter notes, at 60bpm, it's still a chord. Polyphony is not a necessary component of a chord. Strummed guitar chords are not the only definition of "chord". This isn't a hardware/C64 thing, it's a musical thing.

I'm not sure which "example" you are referring too.

[spenoza]

My wife is a music therapist and musician (non-professional) and enjoys music theory, so I played her some of the tunes Tats posted earlier in the thread and brought her up to speed on this discussion. Her assessment is that what we are calling arpeggios (arpeggiated chords) are not at all arpeggios, but in fact tremolos. She checked her music dictionary to be sure because she suspected tremolo might be tied to violin bowing technique (her primary instrument), but it applied to vocal technique as well and we both suspect can be cross-applied to this electronic case as well. Tremolo is, in vocal terms, a rapid, fluttering change of pitch, back and forth between 2 pitches.

She also agrees that it, by and large, sounds like ass, though she confesses that it might be a matter of lack of acclimation. I do not believe she cares to acquire this particular taste, though, as the rewards are not nearly as pleasant as, say, acquiring a taste for good stout.

[esteban]

...She also agrees that it, by and large, sounds like ass, though she confesses that it might be a matter of lack of acclimation. I do not believe she cares to acquire this particular taste, though, as the rewards are not nearly as pleasant as, say, acquiring a taste for good stout.

I love your wife . But, as we all know, alcohol and arpeggios are not mutually exclusive. ;)

[TurboXray]

My wife is a music therapist and musician (non-professional) and enjoys music theory, so I played her some of the tunes Tats posted earlier in the thread and brought her up to speed on this discussion. Her assessment is that what we are calling arpeggios (arpeggiated chords) are not at all arpeggios, but in fact tremolos. She checked her music dictionary to be sure because she suspected tremolo might be tied to violin bowing technique (her primary instrument), but it applied to vocal technique as well and we both suspect can be cross-applied to this electronic case as well. Tremolo is, in vocal terms, a rapid, fluttering change of pitch, back and forth between 2 pitches.

She also agrees that it, by and large, sounds like ass, though she confesses that it might be a matter of lack of acclimation. I do not believe she cares to acquire this particular taste, though, as the rewards are not nearly as pleasant as, say, acquiring a taste for good stout.

Heh. Definitions get tricky. Tremolo in the modern sense (not just chiptunes) is the variation of the strength of volume over a played note. In extreme case, note on/off. Usually repeated on the same note. The 'trem bar' on electric guitars is incorrectly named, for instance. What is does is bending of a pitch: vibrato. Though they got the name right for the FX pedal effect (which is a true tremolo effect). Definitions for specific instruments and/or classical instruments are more.. messy in definition. Cause sometimes the effect also has the characteristics of other effects/method as a result. But the name doesn't change. Just look at classic guitar tremolo playing VS electric guitar tremolo FX pedal. Nothing alike. The name, applied to a specific instrument, can be almost completely different in design and nature. Chiptune trackers have tremolo support and if you tried to tell a chiptune composer than his/her arpeggio effect is a tremolo effect: they'll give you a sideways look.

If I play three notes from a chord, one at a time, all on the same string so that there is no overlap, quarter notes, at 60bpm, it's still a chord.

Well, then that's your liberal definition of a chord. That's an arpeggiated chord, not a chord. They sound nothing alike (and even more different in the chiptune context because... I'm sick of repeating myself). This discussion is getting out of context. I'll save myself the aggravation not continuing this conversation with you.

[ccovell]

FACT:  The C64 has no music that can compete with the likes of Blaster Master, Batman, Mega Man 2, etc etc etc.

It's apples and oranges, dude.  While MM2's songs might be great, they also loop in 30 seconds.  The C64 is full of (yeah, okay, call it "prog-rock") compositions that go on for 10 or 15 minutes.  What other game system did that before CD-ROM music came around?

Example:

(listen all the way to the end; I've cut the first 6 minutes to cater to your attention span.)

The Last Ninja.  Fewer arpeggios than most.  Atmosphere rivaling Ninja Spirit!

Both games, incidentally, appeared on the NES and sound like total ass there.

Also: Tim Follin.  More flutey, less arpy:

[OldRover]

Don't forget about Wally Beben's "Tetris" music... it goes like 20+ minutes before it loops. I'm listening to it right now. 13 minutes in and it hasn't looped yet...

And actually... arpeggio really is the correct musical term, not tremolo. The difference is that an arpeggio's purpose is to construct a chord out of individual notes, whereas a tremolo is a series of individual notes not intended to form a chord but rather a sequence. Of course, you also have to know when you're hearing a tremolo and when you're hearing an arpeggio, as both are used in C64 sidtunes. Arpeggios are much more common though. Someone strumming a muted chord on a guitar slow enough to hear each note played yet fast enough to still recognize the chord as-is might be considered an arpeggio. A tremolo, on the other hand, would be something along the lines of fretboard tapping... notes played in rapid reiteration. And Bonknuts is right... that damn thing on an electric that some call a "tremolo bar" is sooooo wrongly named... it's vibrato, not tremolo. "Vibrato bar" is a much more accurate term. But most people just call it a "whammy bar" anyways, so it doesn't matter.

I study music theory and I have deep respect for anyone else who does.

EDIT: 25 minutes into Tetris and still no loop... though it's playing at PAL speed, which does make it a little slower.

EDIT2: And finally, at 26:10, it looped.

[SignOfZeta]

Well, then that's your liberal definition of a chord. That's an arpeggiated chord, not a chord.

Music is a pretty well studied art form. I wouldn't dare to invent definitions of anything. Talk to a music instructor or just Wiki it. I'm not being "liberal". A chord is not an inherently polyphonic thing.

Anyway...

Something important here to understand is that the terms like tremolo and vibrato and arpeggio were invented to describe techniques used in the music that was being made at that time, with the instruments that were being used at that time. A C64 might very well be arping, but if its only arping two notes and its doing it at a really high frequency then the difference between that and vibrato is...well, there isn't much of one, in practical terms. I guess if the rate is high enough and there are 3 notes or more it could be said that its emulating a strummed, polyphonic guitar chord. Even if it doesn't sound exactly like it, the sensation is similar. Personally, I'd like to think it was its own thing. Not everything has a historical precedent.

BTW, I agree with the awesomeness of the C64 prog rock compositions. So cool.

[spenoza]

Well, either way, what's being done on the C64 resembles vocal tremolo more than an arpeggio (according to the Harvard Concise Dictionary of Music). I would argue that it is probably truly neither. Even general music terms are often linked to an instrument or genre. It seems that electronically generated music does not have the kind of robust technical vocabulary. For example, what we've been calling arps are all attack and no body or close, due to the nature of the extremely rapid repetition and the nature of the waveform of the notes. There is no sustain from residual vibration as you would have on a stringed or percussion instrument. We're talking about a unique "instrument" which needs its own language to describe what it's doing. Only the most basic terms already established will really apply because those terms are so tied to the physicality of human instruments.

*later edit* It just occurred to me that the "arping" also sounds a lot like trilling, like on a flute. It's just a VERY extended trill in some ways. Maybe we need to call it a "trilpeggolo".

[ccovell]

I'm no music student, but I thought a trill was rapid switching between only two notes (as in Legendary Axe II) while arpeggio was cycling between 3 (or more) notes?

[spenoza]

If we generate a hybrid term encompassing all the different situations that this particular sound manipulation contains aspects of, we avoid the fact that this discussion has devolved to something largely semantic.

[Joe Redifer]

EDIT2: And finally, at 26:10, it looped.

That's pathetic!  REAL music doesn't loop for at least 5 days.  26 minutes is just sad.  What a sad little musician who can only come up with 26 minutes of material for a single song.

[ccovell]

REAL music doesn't loop for at least 5 days.

5 days?  Don't make me laugh!  GOD unleashed his creativity for 6 days plus!

[_Paul]

REAL music doesn't loop for at least 5 days.

5 days?  Don't make me laugh!  GOD unleashed his creativity for 6 days plus!

THIS is real music.

[Tatsujin]

Your right Tats! I do love it! And guess what? I played Cybernoid at MGC!

Lissen to this other (and his only one on the MD) work, you might love this as well

Tim makes just one tune for the MD and it instantly becomes one of the best tune on the MD ever (technically). And the best (or worst) thing, it not even got released. lol, LOL, tell me agaain hümäin!

PS. lissen to it via (gun)he(a)dphones

[esteban]

Your right Tats! I do love it! And guess what? I played Cybernoid at MGC!

Lissen to this other (and his only one on the MD) work, you might love this as well

Tim makes just one tune for the MD and it instantly becomes one of the best tune on the MD ever (technically). And the best (or worst) thing, it not even got released. lol, LOL, tell me agaain hümäin!

PS. lissen to it via (gun)he(a)dphones

Thanks for the link. I never thought he worked on MegaDrive/Genesis. I know this isn't a prank, but still...

[_Paul]

Follin was a musical god. His Speccy Bionic Commando arrangement is one of my favourites of his.

[esteban]

Follin was a musical god. His Speccy Bionic Commando arrangement is one of my favourites of his.

Indeed

[Tatsujin]

Follin was a musical god. His Speccy Bionic Commando arrangement is one of my favourites of his.

Indeed

2nded

Sure still I prefere the bit more peppy c64 version of it. But as far as the composition goes, both are equal.

[Mathius]

Follin was a musical god. His Speccy Bionic Commando arrangement is one of my favourites of his.

Thanks to you and your Wibble podcast I am now a Tim Follin nut. Thanks Sunteam!

[_Paul]

There's more Follin to come in the future (Plok will show up at some point).

[Tatsujin]

I hope it is teh beachy

[Mathius]

There's more Follin to come in the future (Plok will show up at some point).

[Joe Redifer]

Tim makes just one tune for the MD and it instantly becomes one of the best tune on the MD ever (technically).

It's a great track, but best ever, definitely not.  Certainly not on a technical level.  ResQ has better instruments and that was just wimpy ol' Matt Furnis (furnace?).  I do wish there was a ROM released with that track on it, though, as the model 2 that it was clearly recorded from is known for its horrible audio quality.

[Arkhan Asylum]

all the tim folin verbal masturbation is getting old. lol.

He still fucked up the Ghouls and Ghosts amiga release, so what happened ? legends never fail.  BUT HE DID.

[Mathius]

all the tim folin verbal masturbation is getting old. lol.

He still fucked up the Ghouls and Ghosts amiga release, so what happened ? legends never fail.  BUT HE DID.

He still rules in my book.

[Jesse813]

I prefer the PC Engine because it has a lot of unique games that you can't find anywhere else that are really good and also lots of awesome SHMUPS. I still love the Genesis, NES, SMS & SNES just not as much as the PCE

[Tatsujin]

Tim makes just one tune for the MD and it instantly becomes one of the best tune on the MD ever (technically).

It's a great track, but best ever, definitely not.  Certainly not on a technical level.  ResQ has better instruments and that was just wimpy ol' Matt Furnis (furnace?).  I do wish there was a ROM released with that track on it, though, as the model 2 that it was clearly recorded from is known for its horrible audio quality.

Re-quoted for re-reading

[Tatsujin]

all the tim folin verbal masturbation is getting old. lol.

He still fucked up the Ghouls and Ghosts amiga release, so what happened ? legends never fail.  BUT HE DID.

He still rules in my book.

sure he does. and he ever will. smart peeps know! haters gonna hate! nuff said.